The Worst Case Scenario

    While each candidate's partisans are focusing on individual states, delegate math, momentum, and each's path to the nomination, I think there is a broader discussion to be had over the worst case scenario for all Democrats.  Prior to the PA primary, I remember reading through a thread (can't find which one), where a response predicted that Hillary would win by 8-10 because that was the result that, arguably, would not change the dynamic of the race.  The prediction was true on both accounts; Sen. Clinton won by 9, and maintained her argument for momentum and Sen. Obama's inability to "close the deal."  The win was not large enough, however, to change the "math" and pick up a significant net gain in delegates.

    My worry is that, what if this scenario continues.  Exact numbers aren't really pertinent (and each side would likely quibble with which states assigned to each), but a scenario likely exists where Sen. Clinton wins a majority of the states left to vote, and keeps the margins close in others (North Carolina, Oregon), which, coupled with a strong showing in the remaining superdelegates, could lead to a chaotic situation.
     This scenario would get worse if the campaigns compromise on the Florida and Michigan situation, and Sen. Clinton picks up a measurable gain in delegates.  The scenario doesn't have to be a "perfect storm" for several reasons.

        (1) Nothing can force Super Delegates to endorse before the convention.  If a significant number decide not to endorce (for fear of alienating various constituents, or just out of an inability to decide), then there is a change neither can reach the magic number (2024, or whatever it ends up being).
         (2) What happens if Sen. Obama passes the "magic number" by 1 delegate...by 5...by 10?  Sen. Clinton has said before (correctly) that theres no such thing as a pledged delegate.  Many delegates, especially super delegates, can (and have) changed their minds.  Is Sen. Clinton going to conceed if she only has to convince one person to change their vote?

    This brings my to my doomesday scenario?  If we have to go to the convention and literally do not know who is our nominee, what is the options for running an effective campaign?  Do both candidates set aside their differences and create the much discussed unity ticket (with the problem of who gets the top slot)?  Do the candidates agree to a cease fire until the convention and direct their efforts toward McCain?  Does Howard Dean have the influence to force uncommitted superdelegates to endorse?  Do we, as democrats, donate to the DNC/527s so we can focus our efforts on Nov?  Can we survive the attack of "Democrats shouldn't be allowed to run the country; they can't even run their own party?"  

       

    My point in discussing about this issue is not that I think any particular candidate should drop out "for the good of the party."  We lose sight of the fact that all our candidates this year are both outstanding, and possess flaws.  The final question is whether the party, and particularly, the blogosphere aspect of it, will survive the summer?  Tenions are already high, with an Us v. Them mentality.  Imagine that multiplied if each candidate was within 25-50 delegates of the nomination, and no resolution until the convention in sight.  With each delegate holding the potential to make or break each candidacy, what happens to the allegations of misproprieties in voting/caucusing in various states?  

    Murphy's Law states that anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.  Personally, I think the scenario is remote.  IMHO, I think Sen. Obama's lead is fairly insurmountable.  I also think, however, that you cannot and should not count Sen. Clinton (or any Clinton) out.  Ever.  Her supporters (as are Sen. Obama's) are deeply committed to her, and will see this through to the end.  The question is, what if the end is not June, but August?


Poll
What is the solution if we don't have a Nominee in June?
Flip a coin, winner gets the Top Slot
The hell with 'em both, Nominate John Edwards
Let Dennis Kucinich pick the winner
Leave the Democratic ballot blank; John McCain is crazy enough that he'll still lose
Move to Canada

Votes: 13
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

If Democratic leadership like Dean and Pelosi attempt to force Hillary out of the race while not seating the delegates from MI and FL, I will re-register as an indepdent and will not vote for Obama in November, I will either not vote at the top of the ticket or write in HRC. I refuse to support a party with an illegitmate nominee and such inept leadership.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:48:32 PM EST

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

So if the party doesn't seat delegates from illegitimate contests, you're going to take your ball and go home? Very mature.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

right - because nothing says maturity like valuing the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. Or is not counting all the votes simply the very height of adulthood?

If those contests produce a definitive win, then they must be counted. Or you will get virtually no Clinton support.

Obama is on very thin ice with his fucked up, frat boy refusal to acknowledge and apologize for Rhodes' diatribe. Yes, I know all the excuses that get offered up but most ADULTS (aye, there's the rub!) would be mortified that such diatribe took place in their name and would apologize for their rowdy to make clear this wasn't something they wanted done in their name. No such dignity from the Obama camp. Calling Clinton a "fucking whore" is a-okay with Obama.

Obama doesn't get a pass on winning without counting all the votes anymore than Bush did. If that's the level you want to operate it, well, I won't be surprised.


by Little Otter on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Oh, yes, one must count contests where candidates were prohibited from campaigning and organizing and ones where major candidates weren't on the ballot-- because we want to emulate Cuba, the Soviet Union, and Iraq under Saddam.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This statement is (2.00 / 1)

BS.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:02:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

Since Senator Obama broke his non campaign pledge in Florida by holding an impromptu press confrence there, per the DNC rules, Senator Clinton must receive half votes for all of her delegate at the convention and Senator Obama must recieve 0. Those are the the rules, and if the party fails to enforce the RULES then I refuse to support such idoicy.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Actually, the RULES say that Florida was an illegitimate contest and nobody gets any delegates from it. Which I'm sure you already know, since the RULES are so important to you and all.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

The rules also said that if anyone was to campaign in Florida (Senator Obama), then the opponent (in this case, Hillary) would have half the delegation seated to none for the person violating the pledge as punishment for the campaign. Per the rules, Florida should count in Hillary's favor.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Nope. Sorry. The rules say nobody gets any delegates from Florida. It sucks, but them's the breaks. Hopefully they can follow the DNC calendar next time.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

The rules actually say that only half the delegates will counted ,and that any candidate who breaks the rules will be penalized - that's what the rules actually say. The rules do not say that they lose ALL delegates. So, by the rules, they can lose half and that should please you because you believe in following the rules. The rules also say that any candidate who breaks the pledge - which Obama alone did - forfeits his delegates to their opponent. So, you're in favor then of counting half the delegates and giving all of them to Cllinton, right? Because those are the rules.....


by Little Otter on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Wrong. The rules also say that the Rules & Bylaws Committee can decide on a harsher punishment for breaking the rules if they so choose. And that's just what they did back in 2007, when Clinton adviser Harold Ickes and the rest of the committee voted to strip Florida and Michigan of all their delegates.

So, the rules say nobody gets any delegates from Florida, regardless of your attempts to spin things differently.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:50:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

S/he is not wrong.

The Committee did decide to strip the candidates of any delegates, but they didn't have to.

Further, under their previous guidelines, had they chosen to enforce them, Obama would have been penalized half of the delegates because of his advertising.

Your absolutist position is a little too simplistic for my tastes. This battle over Michigan and Florida is not over, and it will possibly either cost your candidate:

a) the nomination
b) the general

depending on how it is decided.


by arkansasdemocrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

The Committee acted in accordance with its authority under the rules. Clinton adviser Harold Ickes voted with the majority to strip all of Florida and Michigan's delegates.

So the rules say nobody gets any delegates from Florida or Michigan.

And as for your claim that the battle over Michigan and Florida could cost Obama the general - Obama does better than Hillary vs. McCain in pretty much every Michigan poll out there.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well... (none / 0)

this is like that nose face thing.

If we do not take OUR government BACK from the neo-cons then we ALL lose!

There will most likely be 3 to 4 Supreme Court Justices replaced during the next prez term. This is MORE important then WHO is prez! The repubs know this !

Do we want a Supreme Court that has votes that are 7 to 2 OR 8 to 1 NOT in the favor of WE The People?


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Well I will work for Obama to ensure he wins in Nov if he is the nominee but I will encourage Hillary to go till the convention. The reason being the euphoria in Feb is not a reality so many "pledged" delegates there will be more than willing to vote for Hillary. They can see the public mood has changed in their constituency.


by Sandeep on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:51:01 PM EST

Obamabots and Clintonistas are both right! (none / 0)

The Clintonistas are right about Obama, and the Obamabots are right about Clinton.

They both suck!

Dodd/Clark would roll over McCain like a steam-roller going over a cockroach.


From those who have not, everything will be taken, even the little that they have. -Matthew 13:12
by Jacob Freeze on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:55:53 PM EST

Re: Obamabots and Clintonistas are both right! (none / 0)

LOL - Oh right, let's nominate another guy from New England. Uh huh. Genius.

Don't get wrong, I like Dodd a lot but speaking as Dukakis' first volunteer in California, he looks like a few previous losers to me.


by Little Otter on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

Coronado- thoughtful and interesting. I am most impressed that you didn't end your diary with a call for Clinton to drop out or what have you. The truth is that we Clintonites know that our odds are longer than Obama's but persist because we believe that we have the better candidate.

Hillary remains in the race because

a) she's winning more

b) her best stretch of states are upcoming

c) the DNC is going to have to deal with MI / FL. If she gets out before they deal with that, likely they would be seated with a "rally round the flag" delegation that would support Obama. I hope that she will stay in at least until the MI / FL question is finally disposed of, since it seems likely that she will be the nominee (or at least closer than Obama to the nomination) if those delegations are seated. If they are not, which is likely, the DNC is going to have to explain to MI and FL voters why not and hope for the best. By continuing to post strong performances in these late states, Hillary is  effectively checkmating the DNC.

Now, to directly respond to your thoughtful and insightful diary:

If we get to the end of the contests and we still have two viable candidates (Obama as pledged delegate leader but Clinton still coming on strong-- the status quo) I think that the only solution is that these two have to run together in the fall. Whether it would be Obama / Clinton or Clinton / Obama, that is probably the only way to unite the party. In fairness, in this scenario, it should probably be Obama at the top of the ticket, unless HRC pulls out a popular vote win, which is the real importance of North Carolina.

Nancy Pelosi has gone overboard in denouncing the idea of a unity ticket. It might not be the "most viable" ticket in an ordinary election, but I happen to think that either Clinton or Obama would be inhibited in the fall even if the race ended today. A lot of Clinton supporters won't support Obama. A smaller but not insubstantial number of Obama supporters won't support Clinton. Many will come home by November, but many will not.

In response to Nancy Pelosi, whose motives are transparent, O/C or C/O might be our only viable ticket.


by arkansasdemocrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:04:13 PM EST

"unity" ticket is a bad idea (2.00 / 0)

They both fundamentally undercut the argument for each candidate.

Why would HRC, as someone who has already said Obama is not competent enough to be commander in chief, choose him to be one heartbeat from the presidency?

Why would Obama, as someone who has tied Clinton to the "old way" of politics, do the same?

Both of them would be unable to answer that question during a debate without looking like a liar.


by highgrade on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Like JFK and LBJ? (none / 0)

Kennedy and Johnson called each other much, much worse in 1960.  "Liar" and "Thief" were their favorite insults.  Yet they managed to come together for the good of the party. I'm sure Obama and HRC can do the same.


by Blue Jean on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry but this is 2008, not 1960 (none / 0)

Maybe they did call each other liars, but it's not like those comments were being broadcast 100 times a day on 50 different channels and thousands of websites every day for 6 months.

Seriously, how would Hillary answer that question? The GOP is going to play that clip of her saying she and McCain have crossed the "commander in chief threshold", but that all Obama brings to the table is a speech. What would she say in a debate to the following question:

"Senator Clinton, you said during the primary on several occasions the following:

"I have a lifetime of experience I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience he will bring to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he made in 2002."

As Vice President, Senator Obama is next in line to the presidency if God forbid you are unable to finish out your term, or if you are incapacitated, for instance during a medical procedure. If Senator Obama has not crossed your "commander in chief threshold", are you not putting the safety of not only our Armed Forces, but of the nation itself, in danger, by bestowing upon him the title of commander in chief?      


by highgrade on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, we won 1960. (none / 0)

Guess what?  They'll say that anyway, if Obama's on the top of the ticket, no matter who's his vice President. If it's Clinton, she can say she's making up for his lack of experience, which will reassure a lot of Dems who are nervous about voting for someone with only two years in the Senate.

In the end, it will matter less than others fear it does.  After all, neither JFK nor LBJ had much foreign policy experience, while Nixon was the foreign policy king, (see "the Kitchen Debate") but that didn't help him on the "Quimoy and Matsu" question.

Both Hillary and Obama are smart people; they'll think of a reply.  If not, it won't be 1960; we'll lose.


by Blue Jean on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:54:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "unity" ticket is a bad idea (none / 0)

Why would HRC, as someone who has already said Obama is not competent enough to be commander in chief, choose him to be one heartbeat from the presidency?

Why would Obama, as someone who has tied Clinton to the "old way" of politics, do the same?

Because they might not be able to win without doing so.


by arkansasdemocrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cease Fire (2.00 / 1)

I like the idea of a CEASE FIRE with a focus on McCain and the Democratic party's plan to move our country forward. I like it because it will virtually silence the Obama campaign between now and the convention. Lots of new information has come to light since those early primaries and one must wonder how many pledged delegates would change their votes if they could?


by pan230oh on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:15:44 PM EST

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

Well, New Jersey Democrats have apparently changed their minds about supporting Hillary:

http://www.monmouth.edu/polling/admin/po lls/MUP16_1.pdf

Who would you personally like to see the Democratic party nominate as its presidential candidate --Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama? (Asked only of Democrats)

Obama 45
Clinton 38


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:18:37 PM EST

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

Doing some afternoon cherry picking, I see?


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

I posted my comment in the wrong place. I was responding to the person above who was wondering how many people would change their votes if they could. The answer, apparently, is quite a few.


by Angry White Democrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

new Hillary argument (none / 0)

NJ doesn't count since it's gonna go Democrat anyways!! :)


by highgrade on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (2.00 / 1)

Well, get used to it.  It is going to  the convention.  Even if enough super delegates come out and endorse one candidate to supposedly reach a "magic number," the other candidate will not drop out of such a close race.  Any delegate can change their vote on any whim.  People have gone all the way to the convention with far fewer delegates than either Obama or Clinton already have.  I imagine if either candidate gets completely swept in the remaining 8 contests, and also loses the rules committee fight over FL/MI, they could conceivably drop out, but that's probably less than a 5% chance.


by markjay on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:44:01 PM EST

If both candidates targeted McCain only (none / 0)

our chances of winning would increase exponentially. Imagine all of the media coverage that both candidates receive and it being nothing but McCain attacks? Too good to be true I guess.


by highgrade on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:49:35 PM EST

Re: The Worst Case Scenario (none / 0)

There are two possible worse case scenerios:

(1) Obama wins the popular vote and majority of pledged delegates, but seating the Florida delegates would give Clinton the victory. After a floor fight, the Florida and Michigan delegates are not seated, causing many Clinton supporters to believe that the election was stolen. McCain wins in a landslide against Obama.

(2) Obama wins the popular vote and pledged delegate count. However, the superdelegates believe that Clinton is the stronger general election candidate and give her the nomination, causing Obama supporters to believe that the election was stolen. McCain wins in a landslide victory against Clinton.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:24:03 PM EST

It's not just what campaigns do, its what we do (2.00 / 0)

I'm a HRC supporter, but this is a message to both sides.  The most important thing, by far, is to beat McCain in November.  In the end, the world we live in will not be that different under a BHO or HRC presidency.  In contrast, the next four or perhaps eight years under a McCain presidency would be an unmitigated disaster.

The worst case scenario is that supporters of the losing Dem candidate don't vote in November or, worse, actually vote for McCain.  Anybody from the losing side who sits out this election or turns to the dark side out of petulance is basically selling out liberal values.

The power is in your hands.  Use it wisely.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:25:36 PM EST

I think there is a huge difference between Hillary (2.00 / 1)

and Obama.. Its obvious..

So please dont tell us that they would not be different, when we know it to be true.

Just follow the Obama campaign's 'misstatements' to see what we would have to endure for four years.

Your entire argument is that McCain would be worse, and although I can't give you a reason in advance why that MIGHT not be true, at least we would know where the lines were drawn.

Actually, over the last few weeks, McCain did one thing that shows honesty, he admitted that we are in Iraq because of oil. I am not supporting McCain IN ANY WAY, but that shows that instinctively, he is not AS sleazy as Bush is, at least not when his guard isn't up.

Not that I would vote for him, I wouldn't.

But I dont know if I could vote for Obama now, either.

Time will tell.


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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